Control Geek

I'm not sure if you're talking about arena concerts or the local bar, so we may be comparing apples to oranges here, but in my experience with mostly punk/indie rock bands, the main reasons for lousy sound are:
1. Lousy rooms - As often as not the shows I do sound for are in places that really aren't designed for live sound, certainly not at the volume of a typical rock band, such as coffeeshops, restaurants, art galleries, basements, performance spaces, hole-in-the-wall bars, etc. The band is usually placed in some sonically-challenged position, like, for example, against a long wall made of cinder blocks. I do what I can, but if it's built like a high school gym, it's gonna sound like a high school gym.
2. Inexperienced/overly loud bands - Do you really need two stacks per guitarist for a 25x50 foot room? Apparently so. I've done shows where the band, the audience and myself are all wearing earplugs because of the volume. Mixing with earplugs is about as fun as having sex with a thick woolen sock on your member, but hey, it beats going deaf.
3. Lack of time - So the band is stuck in the permanent gridlock between D.C. and Richmond and won't get here until right before they're supposed to go on? No soundcheck for you, then. I hope they sound sort of similar to something I'm familiar with, otherwise I'll just make up the mix as I go along. Oh, and that annoying feedback? Well, the manager wouldn't let me set up and tune the system until after all the dinner guests leave, which is right before showtime. I should have it under control by the end of the first song.
4. Just plain lack of resources - As you may have figured out, I mostly do sound for locals or bands doing the four-guys-in-a-van, three-week tour thing. No one's getting rich, so I'm not exactly making big bucks. So you're not going to see any JBL, Allen&Heath or QSC at the shows I do. You'll see a Samson board, Carvin amps and Crate speakers left over from my time in a blues-rock band. One of these days I'll have that good stuff, but right now I'm a college student trying to make a bit of extra dough doing sound instead of flipping burgers or delivering pizzas. I can make the best chicken salad out of chicken feathers you've ever tasted, but first you've got to have the chicken, and the one I got is kind of scrawny.
Even with all these challenges, though, I can't really complain. Unlike other jobs I've had, the people I work with seem to honestly appreciate my efforts ("You've got monitors? This is the first time we've seen any on this tour."). One of the reasons I started doing this was because I was tired of going to shows by obscure-but-great bands and having to deal with inaudible or distorted vocals because they were having to use someone's underpowered practice PA. I've been through the mic-through-a-guitar-amp stage and it's a drag. So as long as idealistic young men and women are willing to throw their bodies into 20-year-old vans and brave high gas prices to bring their music to my town, I'll be there to provide the best sound possible with the resources at my disposal.

I think a big part of the problem is the venues the concerts are in. Many times they are designed to hold monster truck rallies on Sunday (Sunday Sunday!) and football games the next night and not much thought has gone into the acoustics. Everything being made of steel and concrete and other acoustically reflective materials creates not only too much reverb but also standing waves at various frequencies that serve to mask what you are actually trying to hear.

I saw U2 in a dome a few years ago and the sound on the floor was so muddy I had no idea what Bono was saying (with or without earplugs).

The quality of live sound is subjective to the listener. Same dynamic as why different generations think each others kind of music sucks.

For the technical aspect of shows, if one can simply understand the intricacies of the physics involved (not necessarily the physics itself) its pretty easy to figure out why some live sound *sucks*...because its fricken hard to do right, period. Its just like developing hardware or software...its really hard to do, especially to do it properly. The amount of work required to properly set up the system, get gain structures set up properly, tune the room and attempt to fix nulls (everyone keeps a couple bass traps in the backs of the trucks right? *roll eyes* ), etc etc. is huge.

Yeaaaa some of these steps are rudimentary and are dealt with quickly from experience, but each venue is different. Sound is strange, unlike lighting which any monkey can do ;) jk. It all really boils down to the physics of it all.

It's my philosophy that you can bring in the worlds best sound system (tm), but still have it suck, if the physics of the venue is gross. Conversely you can bring in a fairly crappy sound system in a properly-accoustically-treated venue and have it sound pretty decent.

But then again sometimes the engineer is just an idiot. :D That could have been what the you were hinting at all along, and maybe you were saying that all us new up-and-comers should have proper schooling/training, I dunno...its late here and I may be babbling incoherently haha.

Just my $0.02.

I think the biggest problem is that there is no standardization along the lines of, "To cover X square feet at Y decibels, you need Z amount of drivers." Of course the argument is that there are a thousand different ways to do it "right", but the problem is that there are also a million ways to do it "wrong".

I think that in a perfect world, every venue would have a permanently installed system that could handle the loudest SPL needed for at least 95% of the events in that venue and direct it in such a way that coverage is even throughout. Also, there needs to be some kind of standard for digital consoles so that at least basic patch info can be shared between every manufacturer's desks. That way, being on tour as an Audio Engineer involves having your patch on a disk/thumbdrive and as you encounter various consoles, just finessing the settings for comps, gates, EQ, etc. for each brand, but not having to start from scratch like you would on an analog desk. Our pack would go from 1/2 a truck to a briefcase. Tours would be less expensive, and that savings could be passed on to the concert-goer.

I believe with the various measurement tools that are available, standards could be set for "flat" system EQ that would achieve a baseline EQ that would eliminate the reverberant frequencies for a given space as well as any oddities in the system. Of course each engineer would still have an adjustable EQ so that they could adjust the sound for their show, but again, 90% of the work would be done before he arrives at the venue by the House Engineer or System Designers. Again, I believe the measuring tools exist to develop these standards and "enforce" them. A rider for a venue would state that they have the capability to provide complete audio coverage at 110db at all seats with a system deviation of +/-2db along a range of frequencies from 20hz to 20khz. If the tour needs 120db, then discussions start at that point, but there is documentation available to show that it meets those standards set forth in the venue's rider.

Think of the way lighting walks in now and ties into house dimmers and even movers in addition to what they brought with them. We should be moving toward the same thing. The most a tour should have to carry for FOH is a console, but I think it would be better if there was standardization among digital consoles, and every venue had one.

A true Nirvana lies waiting, it just needs defined and implemented....

have written a response to John's post on my blog -http://tuckerstuesday.typepad.com/tuckerstuesday/2008/03/john-huntington.html - but he has aaked me to post here in the comments section for archival purposes.

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So why does most live sound suck?

My thoughts on the situation:

1. Over the last 10 years there has been a progressive decline in audio quality contained in the mass market audio mediums, from CDs to the ubiquitous iPod. While there are most certainly very high quality digital formats available for the connoisseur, the majority of music consumers are quite happy with a highly compressed MP3- especially if it is free! So we start off with a general lower quality expectation by those who would actually go to a show.

2. The cost of commercial real estate in nearly every major urban center can be extraordinarily prohibitive to investing in a quality acoustic design and upkeep. Let's face it, most NYC venues are concerned with getting the most out of every event by keeping costs low and margins high-(moderate ticket prices, $8 dollar beers). a Venue providing simply adequate sound is able to cut cost by installing 'shout boxes' which provide a very middle sound quality and tons of volume. I have lost count on the number of venues I have attended shows where it was very obvious that pure volume was used to create excitement at the loss of depth-(the old Ritz anyone? ) I will say that I was blown away by the sound quality at the Lion's Den -(McDougall and Bleeker) some 15 years ago. I could hear every lyric and each of the 7 instruments being played. Not only could I hear the music, I did not leave with my ears ringing for a week! I went to see a multitude of bands at 'the den' I had never heard of -and in many cases never would again- just for the quality sound of the venue. (well, that and the beers were $2 if you showed up early).

3. We have to face it, there are a lot of live sound engineers who either

Never received any formal education in the art of live sound
Never served an internship with a veteran sound engineer and learned from their guiding hand.
Have blown their ears by doing it wrong but refuse to give up the back center stool.
4. It makes white mice spontaneously explode - poor white lab mice, everyone knows high school sucks.

For the record I support John's Bill O' Rights for concert goers, but fear it will suffer the same fate as the travelers bill of rights - which appears to be suffering from lack of support and atrophy.

Please tell me where soundmen learn that the bass drum and/or bass should sound like nuclear explosions instead of musical instruments. Oh sure, boosting the bass can provide more excitement and can be viscerally moving but why does it always have to be to such extremes. It's absolutely rediculous for a bass drum to sound like canon and muddle up all of the other frequencies. Hrrruuummmmph!

Along with all the other good reasons discussed....I disagree a bit that live sound is subjective. I will agree that if the original sources are poor a mixer can only do so much..but my experience has been that most live sound mixers have NO reliable reference as far a balanced and linear transfer is concerned. I am one of those (oooooooh! scary!!!!) people who have done both live and studio work extensively. I have yet to hear a great mix from someone without studio experience. That may seem subjective on it's own but the original recording is the reference that every audience memeber has..if the mixer doens't know the techniques that makes that sound happen..then his reference is flawed and anything that follows will vary accordingly.It is like trying to improve the performance of a car if I have never taken the time to design and build a prototype myself. I can learn more about say..compression..in a one hour studio mixing session than I might in a whole year of live (combat) audio work. Mixing is a craft that needs to be learned under circumstances where you can go back and do over until you get it right..I have never been on a live gig where that freedom existed. Just another take on the problem..and I have heard some HORRIFIC shows this last year..Van Halen being the worst.

Why does Live sound suck?

Are you implying that all live sound sucks?
Or do you mean that most live sound sucks?
Or do you mean that all live sound is somewhere less than perfect (perfect being some aribitrary level of quality some amount better than sucking).

The answer I believe is because in most cases live sound is about one word... Compromise.

The best live sound is simply the best combination of compromises in order to limit the negative affect of each compromise.

Here are some of the things that need to be considered in terms of physics and the limitations of current technology that if not in place require compromises:

- Venue and Acoustics
- Audience Location, density and spread.
- System coverage
- Time Delay
- Noise restrictions
- Equipment availability / quality
- Preparation time or load in restrictions
- Weather
- Equipment failure / redundancy
- Power
- Program material

Then there are the softer issues usually relating to people and politics:

- Budget
- Availability of experienced crew
- Band Engineer
- Band quality / musicianship
- Anyone in the chain of command who just feels like being a prick.

Any one of these items, can contribute to the sound sucking, If you actually look at the list, many of these things are outside the control of those responsible for delivering quality sound. (don't you love this job).

Now I see no reason why, if you gave most of the people on this forum a perfect venue acoustically, with no noise restrictions, ample clean power, the choice of any equipment they wanted, as much preparation time as required, perfect weather, multiple levels of redundancy, a centrally located audience within a triangle 25 degrees from the center of the stage, a fantastic band, with an outstanding engineer and a top shelf crew with no attitudes and an unlimited budget.

I really do think, that it would sound something akin to angels pissing in your ears.

The fact is, 95% of events don't have even a fraction of these things so the reality is we all have to make significant compromises.

And that is why, Live Sound Sucks.

The key is balancing all this crap that is trying to make your live sound suck and making the right level of compromises so that the end result does not suck. The ability to do this marks the difference between an amateur and a professional.

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noise productions ltd
www.np.co.nz
"can you please turn down the shit knob"

i have had the experiences that especially more the old famous and well known bands come with bandengineers providing a bad livesound. In opposite to that, newcomers (not onehitwonder!) have very good and expirienced - mostly young soundengineers. nearly every time we have had riders of that sort:attention:the king is coming...the live sound has been disapointing again and again.
especially, if you provide more (or higher class-) Equipement, than your customer is able to pay for, to save the gig and to enable the best possible result - it is really enerving when the youngsters (for them a M7CL would have been enough!) sounds much more better ,than the "stars of the night" (M7-no way, we need at least a D5 or PM5D - for our 28 Inputchannels...)
in my opinion a good way for (learning) liveengineers is to work on gigs,where they have to learn to pick up a classical orchestra propperly, to make a good mix without using the channelEq. there they will see, what a changing positition of a microfon is affecting your result in which ways. There you will learn to listen to an instrument in natura - before you are going to your mixer.